Juana Summers, host:

As President Trump’s deadline for a deal with Iran approaches, his threats on the country have grown increasingly extreme. After making a flurry of promises to destroy the country’s bridges and power plants, he threatened on Truth Social this morning that – and I quote here – “If there is no deal an entire civilization will die tonight, never to be brought back.” Former military officials and experts on military law have characterized Trump’s words as indiscriminate and unmeasured. And they are raising alarms that his public threats, if implemented, could amount to war crimes.

Democratic Senator Mark Kelly of Arizona, a Navy combat veteran, is among those speaking out. He wrote on social media, illegal orders to make civilians suffer would be a black mark on our military and our country. Senator Kelly joins me now. Welcome.

Mark Kelly: Well, thanks, Juana. Thanks for adding me.

Summers: Thanks for coming. Senator, I think many people remember in November that you recorded this video with five other Democratic lawmakers, all former members of the military and intelligence community. And in the video, you reminded US troops that they can refuse illegal orders. So when you hear the President talking about attacking civilian infrastructure like bridges or power plants, is that the kind of illegal order that you were warning against in that video?

KELLY: Well, you know, we know who Donald Trump is. I watched him very closely during his first term in office. And, you know, after he was re-elected or elected to a second term here, you know, we saw what I think is really, you know, a different – a little bit different Donald Trump. And we wanted to send a message to, you know, members of the military that when the law and orders are in conflict, they are to follow the law.

And, you know, what the President has said over the past few days, particularly over Easter and then this morning, you know, indicates that he is, you know, taking another, you know, unprecedented step or at least indicating that he might do so. And clearly, a broad attack on civilian infrastructure, you know, would be unlawful.

SUMMERS: You point out the law and order in conflict. However I would like to ask more specifically, should service members in this case refuse to follow orders if President Trump orders a widespread attack on Iran’s power plants?

KELLY: You know, I think the greatest burden here is on the president and the secretary of defense. They should not ask soldiers to do things that are against the law. But the law has not changed, and members of the military must follow the law.

Kelly: I actually talked to someone today. And, you know, I know that, you know, other members of Congress have had conversations with members of the military here, and not only – you know, not only this week and, you know, you know, in the past, you know, almost months, you know, they have concerns about a President who wants to do things that, you know, are clearly not consistent with our morals and values ​​as a country. And I worry, you know, where we go from here…

Summers: Yes.

KELLY: …if he decides to take the next step? I mean, saying that a whole civilization will die tonight, somebody might make the argument, well, that’s just Donald Trump and he says things. He has also set a deadline. At 8 pm Eastern time tonight, he plans to do this broad attack on civilian infrastructure in Iran. And I just don’t see how that makes us more safe. In fact, I think it does the opposite.

Summers: Tell us how. I mean, I’ll just note here that you and I are speaking hours before President Trump’s 8 pm deadline. How do you see this moment undermining US standing in the world, US security more broadly?

Kelly: Yeah, sure. I mean, I don’t think our allies support it. We are, you know, clearly, you know, the strongest, most powerful military in the world. But where we are really on par with some of our competitors is the fact that we have allies. And I worry about losing those allies. When the president says, you know, that NATO’s not important anymore…

Summers: Yes.

KELLY: …Or whether he talks about invading Greenland or making Canada the 51st state, he’s alienating us from our friends around the world. we need them. We are stronger together with our allies.

SUMMERS: Senator, let me ask you this. Senate Republicans have repeatedly blocked Democrats’ efforts to rein in President Trump’s power to continue using military force against Iran. What have your conversations been like with your Republican colleagues over the last few days as this rhetoric has really escalated as these threats have become more serious?

KELLY: Well, I have had some, and, you know, I’m hearing a little bit different tone, you know, from them. And I think some of this is public, right? You’ve – I think people have seen messages on social media from Republican senators who you wouldn’t normally expect to speak out against the President on this topic. That’s why they are also worried. We’ll see how many of them actually, you know, decide to develop a spine on this matter and really stand strong against the president.

SUMMERS: OK, so it’s Republican. Now let me ask you about your party. Have the Democrats on Capitol Hill done enough? Should your party do more work?

Summers: Sure.

KELLY: You know, we’re not in the majority. After this election in November, you know, our plan is to gain control of the House and the Senate, and then we have some powers that we can use to hold the administration accountable.

What – but this is all we can do now. We have got the defense bill. You know, we’re constantly – you know, every year, we work on a defense bill. And as Democrats, you know, we have leverage there to keep things in or take things out, you know, to try to put some guardrails on what this president can do. And we are always going to be focused on that.

SUMMERS: I saw several of your Democratic colleagues in Congress on social media today – they have called for the removal of President Trump. Senator, do you agree with him?

Kelly: Well, I mean, you know, how are you going to do that, right? I try to live in the real world here, right? I mean, are we going to see another impeachment and then the votes aren’t there from Republican senators? We’ve been – we’ve seen this happen before, right? And what does he do? Does it strengthen the President politically? You know, it probably does. He also, you know, has a cabinet where, when he decided who was going to, you know, be in his cabinet, he valued loyalty over…

Summers: Okay.

Kelly: …Just about something else. So, you know, I try to live in the real world, use the leverage we have now. We have some, and after November we will have more.

Summers: We have about 45 seconds left here, so I want to end with that. You served in the Navy for more than two decades. Thirty-nine combat missions. This conflict in Iran, how do you see it ending?

KELLY: Well, I think the president really painted himself into a corner here. He did not think more than a step ahead. And, you know, the commander-in-chief needs smart people around him. He will have to listen to those people. We need folks, you know, that serve as president that understand that they don’t know everything. And I think that’s why we’re in the situation we’re in today.

How will this end? I don’t know. I think we need to get back to some kind of real negotiations with the Iranians and stop these threats of destruction of their civilization. You know, that’s not useful rhetoric. I don’t think it brings them closer…

Summers: Okay.

Kelly: …coming to some kind of deal.

Kelly: Thank you.

Copyright © 2026 NPR. All rights reserved. Visit our Website Terms of Use and Permissions page at www.npr.org for more information.

The accuracy and availability of NPR transcripts may vary. The transcript text may be modified to correct errors or match updates to the audio. Audio on npr.org may be edited after its original broadcast or publication. The official record of NPR’s programming is the audio record.